The Homosexual Agenda Creates A Thriving Economy?
By the way, it never ceases to amaze me that the homosexual lobby thinks same-sex marriage and its other agenda items are necessary for a thriving economy. See the first bullet point in the Equality Virginia news release announcing its endorsement of Democrat Creigh Deeds for governor, where EV’s Jon Blair says:
To attract the best public and private employees, Virginia must be welcoming of diversity and avoid discriminatory practices. Anything else hurts employers and employees, stifles economic growth, and limits Virginia’s competitiveness.
Let’s see. Virginia has maintained one of the best economies in the country for decades without capitulating to the radical homosexual agenda, and somehow our economy has suffered? Well, then, take it to they guys who’ve been in charge recently, who say they are on your side — Mark Warner and Tim Kaine (not to mention Jerry Baliles), the men Deeds says he wants to tailor himself after (tax increases and all).
You refer to a “radical homosexual agenda.” Those who opposed Jim Crow laws and supported womens right to vote were referred to by the conservatives of those days as “radicals.” People often say that traditionally for thousands of years, or since the beginning of time, all faiths have endorsed marriage as only between a man and a woman. If we embraced “traditional values” just because they’ve been around since the beginning of time and hence assume those values are good, slavery would still be the order of the day, non-property owners still could not vote, women still could not vote, women would not be able to hold public office….the list goes on and on. How dare homosexuals demand the same rights as everyone else!
Mark — Christian values are not the traditional values you describe. Until Christianity came on the scene, the vast majority of societies considered slavery the norm. What broke the back of slavery and such traditions as keeping people in serfdom? That was Christianity. Christianity provides a coherent religious philosophy that argues against holding our fellow human beings in bondage.
Unfortunately, it took the invention of the printing press for knowledge of the Bible to become commonplace. Yet once people began to read the Bible, it slowly dawned upon them that God had endowed each of us with certain inalienable rights. They realized that slavery (and serfdom) is not compatible with either the Bible or what Jesus taught.
Christianity cannot provide any special status for same-sex relationships. Instead, just like the vast majority of other religious beliefs, Christianity recognizes the procreation has to do with heterosexual relationships. The formation of strong family requires both a mother and a father. That is biological fact, not a religious or political dispute.
When Jesus came 2,000 years ago, He came to save us from sin. With respect to fornication, Jesus did teach something different, but he still taught fornication is a sin.
So what does the Christianity offer homosexuals? Christianity actually does recognize our equality. As Jesus made quite clear in John 8:1-11, we are all sinners; we are all in need of redemption. We are all slaves to sin.
Fortunately, Jesus offers each us true freedom. Through Jesus we have have been forgiven. Through Jesus we can free ourselves from sin.
Tom – I think the best way to answer you is to provide a quote from an Episcopal Bishop which I provide below. The problem with your argument is that there’s not even a consensus among Christians on just what is a “Christian” solution to many social problems. As such, since there’s no “Supreme Court of Christian Theology” then the question should boil down to civil rights, not religion. Plus, let me add that one of my biggest beefs with groups like the FF and the religious right is that they only invoke the Bible when its convenient or doesn’t clash with conservative principles. And believe me, they do clash. Example: Why doens’t the FF advocate Biblically infused blue laws that would require business to close on Sundays so that families can be together AND to keep the Sabbath holy like the Ten Commandments say? I’ll tell you why. Because laws requiring businesses to close on Sunday would fly in the face of highly tauted conservative principles of less government regulation and intrusion and Wall Street profiteers would lose too much money! But when it comes to gay marriage the FF INVOKES the Bible and ENCOURAGES government intervention! This is just hypocrisy. Hey, if you’re going to ignore the Bible on some issues then ignore it on ALL issues. Anyway, here is the quote from the Bishop below:
“When a homosexual orientation is revealed by the development of the science of the brain and its neurochemical process to be a normal part of the sexual spectrum of human life, a given and not a chosen way of life, then it becomes inhumane to use a person’s sexual orientation as a basis for a continuing prejudice. Therefore, the kind of judgement that compromises the worth and well-being of a homosexual person or places limits of the opportunities of that person becomes the activity of ignorance. Since that is so, then a third ultimate human value emerges. It is objectively wrong to act in such a way as to cause or to increase the ignorance that will issue in the diminishment or the destruction of another’s humanity.”
Mark – People do not agree about much of anything. That is why that government which governs least governs best. Unfortunately, people do not agree about that either.
Please note that I said the issue of homosexual marriage is matter of biology, not politics or religion. Whether homosexuality is purely a matter of volition or the manifestation of a genetic disease does make a same-sex union equivalent to marriage or appropriate for government licensing. In either case, a same-sex union is merely a pretense that has no relationship to why humans get married.
What right do you have to demand that others join you in a pretense? It would make more sense to say two little children (a boy and a girl) pretending to be married are married. At least they could eventually have children. In the meantime, some people would think it is soooo cute. Yet encouraging little children to pretend they are married would violate the rights of the little children. So we don’t do that either.
The Sunday blue laws disappeared in the interest of religious freedom. Nonetheless, the absence of blue laws is also consistent with the Bible. Jesus performed numerous healings on the Sabbath. From the viewpoint of the teachers of the law, He “worked” on the Sabbath. When the teachers of law confronted Him with the matter, Jesus pointed out that it is lawful to do good works on the Sabbath.
We should honor God on the Sabbath, but how we do so is up to each of us.
Tom – You must know full well that religious conservatives do not base their anti-gay marriage views on biology! Please, spare me. They base it on Biblical passages just as my religious right relatives do. As for blue laws one could say like you that they disappeared for the sake of religious freedom. One could just as easily argue that blue laws disappeared in the interests of financial gain. When you say that the absence of blue laws is in keeping with the Bible because Jesus worked on Sundays let me just say that Jesus often broke the same old Testament laws that he encouraged his followers to abide by! Your argument is a classic case of cherry picking the Bible for whatever fits your political views.
And your line “the government that governs the least governs the best.” I spent years in foreign countries in my career in the foreign serivce. Spend some time in Brazil, Mexico, Guatamala etc. Yes, I’ve seen how people fare when democracies don’t mandate giving, don’t regulate businesses and let the “haves” decide when they want to give to the “have-nots.”
Mark – I am a religious Conservative. I think we come in various assorted packages. You are, of course, familiar with the term diversity?
Frankly, I am more interested in what the Bible has to say than the secular viewpoint. However, I don’t want to live in a theocracy any more than you do. So I generally content myself by crouching my arguments in secular terms. These arguments do includes traditions. While traditions may have a religious basis, the fact anything becomes a tradition is related to the simple fact that what has become a tradition has worked.
Nonetheless, since you brought up the Bible, I will talk about it. The Bible makes it quite clear that the practice of homosexuality is immoral. What I expect God regards as much more evil is sex without love. That is the difference between using another person and trying to do what is best for another person. With that thought in mind, can we honestly say all homosexual relations are immoral? The Bible does not make any exceptions, but perhaps God does. I don’t know. I just know the practice is best avoided.
Unfortunately, behavioral and/or genetic defects are hardly unique to homosexuals. So to some degree heterosexual relationships pose similar issues. Nevertheless, heterosexual relations can be far more purposeful and fruitful. There are long established courtship rituals (traditions) which, when followed, help to ensure that the relationship between a couple matures from lust into love before marriage and sexual intercourse. Then when and if the relationship is blessed with children, the couple can raise their children properly.
From the viewpoint of government, marriage involves the protection of children. The reason for this should be obvious (Can you imagine how obvious it was when families often had a dozen children?). Government’s paramount responsibility is the protection of human rights. Since children cannot protect their own rights, government must protect their rights.
Thus, marriage has existed for millenniums. Marriage serves as a vehicle that ensures parents recognize and accept their obligations. On the other hand, same-sex marriage is a recent “innovation.” Instead of thinking, I fear we live an era when adult children toy with ideas and protest their feelings. What is best for actual children, we have set aside.
My brothers Mark and Tom:
From you, Mark on 10-17: “If we embraced “traditional values” just because they’ve been around since the beginning of time and hence assume those values are good, slavery would still be the order of the day, non-property owners still could not vote, women still could not vote, women would not be able to hold public office….the list goes on and on. How dare homosexuals demand the same rights as everyone else!”
From Mark again, on 10-18: “As such, since there’s no “Supreme Court of Christian Theology” then the question should boil down to civil rights, not religion.”
Well, Mark, it may be the same Episcopal bishop who drove me into the arms of the Catholic Church! You see, Mark, there is a “Supreme Court of Christian Theology” It is called the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, and it has provided the definitive answer to the very questions you and Tom raise regarding both faith and morals. Yes, indeed, it is scriptural — both Old and New Testaments, both of which have always condemned sex outside of marriage and homosexuality.
And you, Tom, your take on the origins of Christian moral teaching is sadly short sighted. Christians did not suddenly discover the moral teachings of the Bible with the invention of the printing press. How do you think we got the Bible in the first place? First, in Old Testament days it was handed down verbally for generation after generation before it was written down. Then the Apostles verbally admonished one another, building the Church, before the New Testament was written in the late First Century. Then we had the early Church Fathers who carried on the tradition and answered arguments which arose, explaining the Faith and spreading the Gospel. Then, finally the Church put together the Canon of Scripture at the Council of Carthage in 397. But the Church never stopped teaching, interpreting and guiding the faithful.
Sadly the great rift that culminated in the early Sixteenth Century Revolt that split half of the the Church off, smashed unified faith and grew the “tyranny of relativism” we suffer today. This relativism is expressed by both Tom and Mark, though from differing moral and political positions. This split from Reality has brought us to the point where we question everything–including unchangeable truths about human nature, about God, about Reality Itself. We stand in quicksand. Seeing that quicksand for the first time is what finally made me take the leap to the One True Church Christ founded on the Rock of Peter– whose teachings are the authoritative source of both Faith and Reason about Reality. Get a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church and let’s meet after class!
See Mark. What did I tell you? Religious Conservatives do come in assorted packages.
Mike — I think the printing press more than a little relevant in human history, and I do not think it an accident that the Bible was the first printed book. Why you want to contest that view, I can only guess.
Anyway, I suggest you carefully review what you wrote. It seems to me like you are DELIBERATELY trying to pick a fight and give Catholics a bad name. That is not nice.
Gents – I believe all 3 of us are correct on some counts and not so correct on others. Tom, I don’t disagree that religious conservatives do come in assorted packages. I see it in my family and friends. That said Tom I would say that the Family Foundation doesn’t realize that or worse yet DOES realize it but uses divisive language that appeals to their supporters by continually ranting about liberals and secularists in ways that imply that they are something other than Christians. The reality is, most liberals and yes, even most secularists are indeed Christians. While liberals may support abortion rights they may be pro-life in other ways like opposing war (especially preemptive war) and a belief that health care is a moral imperative that is crucial to support innocent life. As for secularists, many of them are Christians but believe that an American flag up on the alter does not honor God. Its about trying to make ourselves feel better about ourselves as a people.